I’m in the process of reading Terrence Real’s book “I don’t want to talk about it”, which suggests that the majority of “hard men” like Noel are actually in the grip of covert depression, a condition they mistake for masculinity, and pass on to anyone over whom they have power.
worthy notes. the irony is, the "soft" delivery can mask a lot, it's why jordan peterson has gotten the flood of attn he has by some very similar tate followers. peterson is a more "composed" version. and from what i can gather about noel, the same goes. underneath the cowboy soft man posterior is a dangerous message which ultimately, which one of his 7 will come out of the closet?
What is your viewpoint on neurodivergent men attending therapy? I ask because traditional therapies don’t usually work for neurodivergent people, and men are reluctant to try therapy in the first place, so…what to do?
Thanks for asking! Neurodivegence is such a broad category that it’s hard for me not to weigh in with any specificity. I do believe wholeheartedly in trauma-informed, non-shaming, somatic-based therapies like IFS, EMDR, etc., though. I wouldn’t recommend talk therapies like CBT for neurodivergent folks, or most folks, honestly.
Hmm. I bring up my autism all the time in therapy, and maybe I'm fortunate that my therapist has worked with autistic folks, so it helps if there's understanding. I wish I could offer words of advice and help for you.
In addition to the burdens that “traditional” masculinity puts on men, another problem of that world view is that it completely dismisses and disparages all of the actual work—the actual providing— that even SAHMs and “traditional” wives do. Women provide things that men depend on and benefit from, beyond just a (ideally loving, but if not particularly then at least sex, amirite?) personal relationship: a clean, well-ordered and provisioned home, children who are taken care of, prepared meals, and not having to worry about all of the above (and more). It’s almost like all those things are so valuable, men are willing to give a lot for them—or know they have to. It’s not just the goodness of their hearts.
I think about this a lot since I’ve been in a gay partnership for a decade. Neither of us assume “man” and “woman” roles — we are both men. But we divide our labor in the home based on skill, not on gender. As circumstances change, we renegotiate who does what. I think this makes us healthier as a couple, and I wish straight couples had the same freedom.
My late father was born in 1944 in a working class milieu. He told me that many of the older men he grew up around probably had PTSD from WW2. He himself joined the navy and then became a probation officer - often dealing with broken men. He himself wasn’t broken. He had no interest in performing some kind of manly ideal for me or my brother. Men are creative and funny and vulnerable and just get stuff done. And for that I am a grateful.
I would like to point out that large scale institutional therapy really only became a thing in the last few decades. Lay psychotherapy was invented a little over a century ago and has, for the vast majority of its existence, been based on highly conjectural and often not evidence-based theories about human psychology. Even current theories are often based on limited sample sizes, populations of people with severe mental difficulties beyond what the average layperson has, and in some cases are highly biased. For the vast, vast majority of people, what they need is not therapy, but reliable friends they can vent to, and perhaps a confidante they can admit their faults to without judgement.
Therapy is often tied to very particular beliefs about social dynamics. In particular, it tends to favor left wing politics. This isn’t a comment on left wing theory in general, but many left wing political theorists based their ideas on psychotherapy or were practicing therapists (Foucault, Lacan, etc.). In reality therapy is a very specific field of medicine, and not everyone needs therapy, not even everyone with mental health problems, just like not everyone with cardiovascular issues needs to see a cardiologist. Many of them would be just fine independently working with a PCP and improving their fitness, just like many people with minor (or no) mental health issues needs social support, not therapy.
I’m in the process of reading Terrence Real’s book “I don’t want to talk about it”, which suggests that the majority of “hard men” like Noel are actually in the grip of covert depression, a condition they mistake for masculinity, and pass on to anyone over whom they have power.
It’s on my shelf to read soon!
What an outstanding and thought provoking article.
This sentence summed it up brilliantly: "Noel is giving advice that no longer works for the vast majority of men."
And that's the crux of the issue. Noel, and so many other malefluencers, are selling something that simply doesn't lead to a better life experience.
Exactly!
this work and writing you're doing is so important. thank you for being here
Thanks, MariJean! I owe you an email :)
worthy notes. the irony is, the "soft" delivery can mask a lot, it's why jordan peterson has gotten the flood of attn he has by some very similar tate followers. peterson is a more "composed" version. and from what i can gather about noel, the same goes. underneath the cowboy soft man posterior is a dangerous message which ultimately, which one of his 7 will come out of the closet?
What is your viewpoint on neurodivergent men attending therapy? I ask because traditional therapies don’t usually work for neurodivergent people, and men are reluctant to try therapy in the first place, so…what to do?
Thanks for asking! Neurodivegence is such a broad category that it’s hard for me not to weigh in with any specificity. I do believe wholeheartedly in trauma-informed, non-shaming, somatic-based therapies like IFS, EMDR, etc., though. I wouldn’t recommend talk therapies like CBT for neurodivergent folks, or most folks, honestly.
Hmm. I bring up my autism all the time in therapy, and maybe I'm fortunate that my therapist has worked with autistic folks, so it helps if there's understanding. I wish I could offer words of advice and help for you.
In addition to the burdens that “traditional” masculinity puts on men, another problem of that world view is that it completely dismisses and disparages all of the actual work—the actual providing— that even SAHMs and “traditional” wives do. Women provide things that men depend on and benefit from, beyond just a (ideally loving, but if not particularly then at least sex, amirite?) personal relationship: a clean, well-ordered and provisioned home, children who are taken care of, prepared meals, and not having to worry about all of the above (and more). It’s almost like all those things are so valuable, men are willing to give a lot for them—or know they have to. It’s not just the goodness of their hearts.
Yes! Capitalism devalues so-called “women’s work,” which is why men have been conditioned to fear being “like a woman,” “soft,” or “feminine.”
I think about this a lot since I’ve been in a gay partnership for a decade. Neither of us assume “man” and “woman” roles — we are both men. But we divide our labor in the home based on skill, not on gender. As circumstances change, we renegotiate who does what. I think this makes us healthier as a couple, and I wish straight couples had the same freedom.
My late father was born in 1944 in a working class milieu. He told me that many of the older men he grew up around probably had PTSD from WW2. He himself joined the navy and then became a probation officer - often dealing with broken men. He himself wasn’t broken. He had no interest in performing some kind of manly ideal for me or my brother. Men are creative and funny and vulnerable and just get stuff done. And for that I am a grateful.
I am not crying, it’s just raining on my face.
So good!
Thanks!
I would like to point out that large scale institutional therapy really only became a thing in the last few decades. Lay psychotherapy was invented a little over a century ago and has, for the vast majority of its existence, been based on highly conjectural and often not evidence-based theories about human psychology. Even current theories are often based on limited sample sizes, populations of people with severe mental difficulties beyond what the average layperson has, and in some cases are highly biased. For the vast, vast majority of people, what they need is not therapy, but reliable friends they can vent to, and perhaps a confidante they can admit their faults to without judgement.
Therapy is often tied to very particular beliefs about social dynamics. In particular, it tends to favor left wing politics. This isn’t a comment on left wing theory in general, but many left wing political theorists based their ideas on psychotherapy or were practicing therapists (Foucault, Lacan, etc.). In reality therapy is a very specific field of medicine, and not everyone needs therapy, not even everyone with mental health problems, just like not everyone with cardiovascular issues needs to see a cardiologist. Many of them would be just fine independently working with a PCP and improving their fitness, just like many people with minor (or no) mental health issues needs social support, not therapy.