I’m a teacher & my husband is an engineer. The gap in our salaries very subtly germinated into his perception that his job is more important than mine. Our division of household labor has followed a traditional pattern with me doing most of the food prep & laundry while he does most of the yard work. It has been a struggle to break out of the rigidity of habit and I think that both of our struggles with mental health have been exacerbated by a lot of “default settings.”
Most of my clients are men who are experiencing relationship conflict about this exact thing. It's one of the big challenges I'm trying to figure out how to solve through my newsletter. Thanks for sharing your experience. I'm lucky that I hate yardwork and really enjoy cooking. I also like a clean and tidy house more than my partner, so I end up doing an equal amount of cleaning.
Not cis, but I remember being taught never to cry in front of other people. Crying was viewed as something shameful, something nobody was supposed to know you did.
I have only seen my father cry twice in almost 40 years.
The only memory I have around my father crying was due to stress when our mother was in the hospital. "Take your medicine or else you'll end up sick like her!" Emotions were very weird growing up. I've learned so much more being independent with someone safe in life.
A fascinating and educational read. I just had a discussion with another male friend about this perceived difference of women being more emotional than men. My experience is that the argument is absurd. It is prevalent though. For example, in the workplace, in my experience, when a woman makes a strong case for a course of action, men will call her "emotional", but when the presenter is a man, then his presentation had "conviction".
Coming from a religious background, there's so much toxic gender differences laced throughout a lot of ancient texts. But most people don't realize they were essentially propaganda. Most people couldn't read then, so they were read to, taught what it meant to be a good man or a faithful wife, the consequences of which trickled down and mutated into what our culture is today. The mere fact that so many men and women today are being exposed to a different way of life is encouraging. I really do think we're on a positive path.
I was just going to comment exactly this, that there are a lot of gender norming activities going on in the ancient and medieval worlds, it's not just that it all changed during the industrial revolution. But, as you point out, the context of those societies is very very important. Some societies had stronger gender norms than others and sometimes they were at war with each other for cultural dominance. Also, people had radically different relationships with their children since many didn't survive to adulthood, thus putting really different pressures and freedoms on mothers and fathers.
I have written and podcasted at length about the history of the modern masculinity movement (1800 to now) with Modern Manhood, and I think the idea that it's all JUST capitalism doesn't paint the full picture. The past culture and ide of women as natural nurturers stems way before industrialization. But it was industrialization that caused what we know as modern "traditional" masculinity movement where men were going to the office and women were told to stay at home to look after the kids. More so though than anything that has caused this panic of men wanting to go back to "traditionality" is DIVORCE. Divorce done in a way which women would be financially stable was a huge win for feminism and you can see where the discourse of men REALLY turn. Men could not handle the idea of divorce as liberating as it may be for women because they could not see nurturing and child raising as a beneficial financially, they thought they brought home the money and they should keep the money and control the money. But they didn't see or value the fact that women child rearing was essential for those men to make money as well. Capitalism of course rears it's ugly head, but the culture behind it and before it also plays into it.
All modern masculinity movements (MRA's, Incels, MGTOW, PickUp Artists, etc.) stem from this idea of individualization which stems from the modern idea of divorce. If I would advise anyone looking to find out more about the current movement, I would start there.
Honestly I’m still trying to understand this. Maybe I don’t feel as trapped by these roles as other people do, but maybe that’s because I’ve been doing the work for so long I forget what it was like before. I really don’t know. I’d be very curious to read more about gender roles over time. I’m not yet convinced that the current roles were made up for political or economic reasons. I’m not disputing it, I just haven’t had enough exposure to that argument and any counterpoints.
Thanks for this honest response! I'm still exploring it as well, but I see the norms that these roles prescribe in so many of my clients who are men. And I'm just starting to scratch the surface on the history of where they came from. I'll keep researching and writing about it!
Please do! I’m enjoying your work. I’m seeing it come up in a different way, in terms of the amount of pushback I get here from some men about couples therapy. Some think it’s rigged against them (which I kinda get) and some think it’s gay (which is telling in another way), but there is also a distinct group of men who think it’s unnatural. That men and women aren’t supposed to be equal partners in a relationship. I see so much anger and pain there.
Does the need to be a supportive provider also count as the traditional role? This is something which I am going through, in addition to embracing my own needs and boundaries and being vulnerable.
Well, good question! Being a supportive partner means supporting another in all areas--emotionally, financially, physically---that sort of thing. Bearing others' struggles as well as our own? I feel this is something which a lot of men are subject to unwillingly--being the 'strong pillar' though perhaps my perception could be off. And of course it's not simply 'just men' who do this, or are made to do this, but...
I will admit, I was, until recently, one of those feminists who was very dismissive of what I now see as the very real harm that patriarchy Inflicts on men. Your column has been instrumental in that shift (along with Richard Reeves, bell hooks, Ruth Whippman, among others). So thank you for this space. Toxic masculinity mainly shows up in the ongoing debate my husband.and I have about how we are raising our son, best exemplified by the time we each read a few books that had influenced our parenting philosophy. I gave him Dr. Becky and Janet Lansbury, he gave me Marcus Aurelius’ Meditations and Between the World and Me. While I love that he models doing far more than half of the domestic labor, I struggle with his deep commitment to self discipline and stoicism and his relative social isolation. Would love further columns about how men can start to crack open that protective stoic armor.
I love that topic! The post I'm about to put out in a few hours is actually sort of about that. I think that's the biggest value of the therapy and men's work I've been doing. I'm not longer convinced that independence and self-discipline are the most important virtues, like I once did as a younger man.
The worst way that 'traditional masculinity' manifested in my life was intense emotional repression. My mind consistently repeated the word "gaman" (我慢), Japanese for "endure." I learned to think of it as a sort Samurai stoicism, without realizing how unhealthy it was
So I didn't seek out mental health care until I told a high school teacher that my suicidal thoughts became too much to bear. Even then, I was so scared to seek help that I had nightmares about being sent against my will to Bellevue
It's been really tough to learn how to process my emotions in a healthier way, although I'm quite fortunate to be under the care of some really great mental health professionals and social workers
I know other men of Japanese ancestry who repress their emotions like that. Reaching out to my best male friends and sharing my emotions has been good for me. It's a step that I think other men can try for themselves also
Mahalo for your exploration of how 'traditional masculinity' isn't quite so traditional either in other cultures or even our own. Since these notions of masculinity are not some immutable law of physics, we can choose to change them, to the benefit of everyone, men, women, and non-binary alike
I love that you shared this. I can relate. And your experience makes me think of a few of my friends who've been through similar things. Feeling lots of warmth toward you, brother 🧡
The same Capitalist that you blame for men's ills a few centuries ago; is the same Capitalist who has sponsored feminsim, saturated the labor market, plummeted the wage rate, risked the job security and backed up a regressive taxation system all to (indirectly) burden and disadvantage men. The same issues are one of the primary reasons behind the way men feel like this. We have nothing to thank feminism for (which claims that no trait is gendered yet toxicity is masculine). Men feel like this due to bad economies and disenfranchisment.
I’m a teacher & my husband is an engineer. The gap in our salaries very subtly germinated into his perception that his job is more important than mine. Our division of household labor has followed a traditional pattern with me doing most of the food prep & laundry while he does most of the yard work. It has been a struggle to break out of the rigidity of habit and I think that both of our struggles with mental health have been exacerbated by a lot of “default settings.”
Most of my clients are men who are experiencing relationship conflict about this exact thing. It's one of the big challenges I'm trying to figure out how to solve through my newsletter. Thanks for sharing your experience. I'm lucky that I hate yardwork and really enjoy cooking. I also like a clean and tidy house more than my partner, so I end up doing an equal amount of cleaning.
Not cis, but I remember being taught never to cry in front of other people. Crying was viewed as something shameful, something nobody was supposed to know you did.
I have only seen my father cry twice in almost 40 years.
I saw my dad cry for the first time last year! It was so healing.
The only memory I have around my father crying was due to stress when our mother was in the hospital. "Take your medicine or else you'll end up sick like her!" Emotions were very weird growing up. I've learned so much more being independent with someone safe in life.
A fascinating and educational read. I just had a discussion with another male friend about this perceived difference of women being more emotional than men. My experience is that the argument is absurd. It is prevalent though. For example, in the workplace, in my experience, when a woman makes a strong case for a course of action, men will call her "emotional", but when the presenter is a man, then his presentation had "conviction".
Coming from a religious background, there's so much toxic gender differences laced throughout a lot of ancient texts. But most people don't realize they were essentially propaganda. Most people couldn't read then, so they were read to, taught what it meant to be a good man or a faithful wife, the consequences of which trickled down and mutated into what our culture is today. The mere fact that so many men and women today are being exposed to a different way of life is encouraging. I really do think we're on a positive path.
I was just going to comment exactly this, that there are a lot of gender norming activities going on in the ancient and medieval worlds, it's not just that it all changed during the industrial revolution. But, as you point out, the context of those societies is very very important. Some societies had stronger gender norms than others and sometimes they were at war with each other for cultural dominance. Also, people had radically different relationships with their children since many didn't survive to adulthood, thus putting really different pressures and freedoms on mothers and fathers.
I have written and podcasted at length about the history of the modern masculinity movement (1800 to now) with Modern Manhood, and I think the idea that it's all JUST capitalism doesn't paint the full picture. The past culture and ide of women as natural nurturers stems way before industrialization. But it was industrialization that caused what we know as modern "traditional" masculinity movement where men were going to the office and women were told to stay at home to look after the kids. More so though than anything that has caused this panic of men wanting to go back to "traditionality" is DIVORCE. Divorce done in a way which women would be financially stable was a huge win for feminism and you can see where the discourse of men REALLY turn. Men could not handle the idea of divorce as liberating as it may be for women because they could not see nurturing and child raising as a beneficial financially, they thought they brought home the money and they should keep the money and control the money. But they didn't see or value the fact that women child rearing was essential for those men to make money as well. Capitalism of course rears it's ugly head, but the culture behind it and before it also plays into it.
All modern masculinity movements (MRA's, Incels, MGTOW, PickUp Artists, etc.) stem from this idea of individualization which stems from the modern idea of divorce. If I would advise anyone looking to find out more about the current movement, I would start there.
Honestly I’m still trying to understand this. Maybe I don’t feel as trapped by these roles as other people do, but maybe that’s because I’ve been doing the work for so long I forget what it was like before. I really don’t know. I’d be very curious to read more about gender roles over time. I’m not yet convinced that the current roles were made up for political or economic reasons. I’m not disputing it, I just haven’t had enough exposure to that argument and any counterpoints.
Thanks for this honest response! I'm still exploring it as well, but I see the norms that these roles prescribe in so many of my clients who are men. And I'm just starting to scratch the surface on the history of where they came from. I'll keep researching and writing about it!
Please do! I’m enjoying your work. I’m seeing it come up in a different way, in terms of the amount of pushback I get here from some men about couples therapy. Some think it’s rigged against them (which I kinda get) and some think it’s gay (which is telling in another way), but there is also a distinct group of men who think it’s unnatural. That men and women aren’t supposed to be equal partners in a relationship. I see so much anger and pain there.
Does the need to be a supportive provider also count as the traditional role? This is something which I am going through, in addition to embracing my own needs and boundaries and being vulnerable.
This is such a great question. I'm curious if you're open to sharing more about. What do you mean by a "supportive partner?"
Well, good question! Being a supportive partner means supporting another in all areas--emotionally, financially, physically---that sort of thing. Bearing others' struggles as well as our own? I feel this is something which a lot of men are subject to unwillingly--being the 'strong pillar' though perhaps my perception could be off. And of course it's not simply 'just men' who do this, or are made to do this, but...
I will admit, I was, until recently, one of those feminists who was very dismissive of what I now see as the very real harm that patriarchy Inflicts on men. Your column has been instrumental in that shift (along with Richard Reeves, bell hooks, Ruth Whippman, among others). So thank you for this space. Toxic masculinity mainly shows up in the ongoing debate my husband.and I have about how we are raising our son, best exemplified by the time we each read a few books that had influenced our parenting philosophy. I gave him Dr. Becky and Janet Lansbury, he gave me Marcus Aurelius’ Meditations and Between the World and Me. While I love that he models doing far more than half of the domestic labor, I struggle with his deep commitment to self discipline and stoicism and his relative social isolation. Would love further columns about how men can start to crack open that protective stoic armor.
I love that topic! The post I'm about to put out in a few hours is actually sort of about that. I think that's the biggest value of the therapy and men's work I've been doing. I'm not longer convinced that independence and self-discipline are the most important virtues, like I once did as a younger man.
The worst way that 'traditional masculinity' manifested in my life was intense emotional repression. My mind consistently repeated the word "gaman" (我慢), Japanese for "endure." I learned to think of it as a sort Samurai stoicism, without realizing how unhealthy it was
So I didn't seek out mental health care until I told a high school teacher that my suicidal thoughts became too much to bear. Even then, I was so scared to seek help that I had nightmares about being sent against my will to Bellevue
It's been really tough to learn how to process my emotions in a healthier way, although I'm quite fortunate to be under the care of some really great mental health professionals and social workers
I know other men of Japanese ancestry who repress their emotions like that. Reaching out to my best male friends and sharing my emotions has been good for me. It's a step that I think other men can try for themselves also
Mahalo for your exploration of how 'traditional masculinity' isn't quite so traditional either in other cultures or even our own. Since these notions of masculinity are not some immutable law of physics, we can choose to change them, to the benefit of everyone, men, women, and non-binary alike
I love that you shared this. I can relate. And your experience makes me think of a few of my friends who've been through similar things. Feeling lots of warmth toward you, brother 🧡
The same Capitalist that you blame for men's ills a few centuries ago; is the same Capitalist who has sponsored feminsim, saturated the labor market, plummeted the wage rate, risked the job security and backed up a regressive taxation system all to (indirectly) burden and disadvantage men. The same issues are one of the primary reasons behind the way men feel like this. We have nothing to thank feminism for (which claims that no trait is gendered yet toxicity is masculine). Men feel like this due to bad economies and disenfranchisment.
Love that book! She’s one of my biggest influences 😀
Found it—still looking for an e-book, though